With President Joe Biden in the White House at 81 and Donald Trump at 78 running to replace him, plenty of Americans are wondering how people at advanced ages handle high-pressure jobs. Stacy Vernon is program manager, head of adult assessment at the Center for Brain Health at the University of Texas at Dallas. She joins host Krys Boyd to discuss what makes a “super ager,” common health ailments for senior citizens, and if age makes a demanding job more difficult.
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Transcript
Krys Boyd [00:00:10] There has been a lot of talk about aging lately in this country, as 78 year old Donald Trump and 81 year old Joe Biden prepare for November’s presidential election. Those conversations were supercharged by Biden’s struggles in a recent debate.
Joe Biden [00:00:24] Making sure that we’re able to make every single, solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the, with the Covid, I should be with, dealing with everything we have to do with. I on? If. We finally beat Medicare, but.
Krys Boyd [00:00:45] Both candidates have been caught on tape mixing up names and going off track in conversations.
Donald Trump [00:00:50] So I said, let me ask you a question. And he said, nobody ever asked this question. And it must be because of Mitt, my relationship to Mitt. Very smart. He goes. I say, what would happen if the boat sank from its weight? And you’re in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery and the batteries now underwater, and there’s a shark that’s approximately ten yards over there. And by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. You notice that a lot of shot. I watch some guys justifying it today. Well, they weren’t really that angry. They bit off the young lady’s leg because of the fact that they were they were not hungry, but they misunderstood what she was. These people are crazy. He said there’s no problem with sharks. They just didn’t really understand a young woman swimming. Now. It really got decimated and other people did a lot of shark attacks. I said, so there’s a shark ten yards away from the boat, ten yards out here. Do I get electrocuted? If the boat is sinking, water goes over the battery. The boat is sinking. Do I stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted?
Krys Boyd [00:01:55] And each of them, it should be said, insists he is uniquely qualified to handle whatever challenges might arise in the next four year term from KERA in Dallas. This is think I’m Chris Boyd. Neither candidate has agreed to take and release results of truly comprehensive cognitive testing, so we can’t discuss the specifics of their cognitive health. But it does seem helpful to get an overview of what scientists know about the way our ability to think, speak, control emotions, and make decisions tends to change as we get older and consider the difference between healthy aging and symptoms that might indicate a problem. So we have invited Stacy Vernon to share some insights. She is program manager and head of adult assessment at the center for Brain Health at the University of Texas, Dallas. Stacy, welcome to think.
Stacy Vernon [00:02:42] Thank you so much for having me.
Krys Boyd [00:02:44] We all live in bodies that change over time. Are the mechanisms of aging in the brain fundamentally different from, say, the way our joints or our skin or other organs eventually work somewhat less well after many years of use.
Stacy Vernon [00:02:59] So what we’ve learned in terms of how the brain ages is very similar to the way the body changes as well. However, what we found is that just in the same way that we’re able to positively affect our physical activity, our physical life, or improve our joint help, we can also improve our brain health, through daily activities and also key lifestyle factors. But there are some elements that we do know that tend to be true about when we age. And that includes things like feeling like we’re a little bit slower in bringing up names or remembering details from recent events, for example. There are ways that we can positively address that, though, throughout our lifetime, which is a fairly new, element of research, which we’re excited about talking about at the center for Brain Health.
Krys Boyd [00:03:48] So it sounds like what you’re saying is we used to believe, like there are some changes, including to people with pretty normal brains. But we just had to accept those as they came. Now, you’re saying there may be things we can do to. Even after we notice some of those changes to to bump up our abilities again.
Stacy Vernon [00:04:04] Yes. So we used to, say like, let’s start in the in the early 90s, we began to understand in research that the, what used to be the widely held understanding that the brain pretty much stays the same and stops developing in our 20s, that that actually was not the case, and that this idea of neuroplasticity, that the brain changes based on how we use it is active throughout our lifespan. And so with that, there’s a lot of opportunity. Now, I’ll back up to say that we also know that within research, we’ve put in millions of dollars, if not more, into research to try to address some of the unfortunate neurodegenerative declines that can happen as we age. And thus far, while there have been some inroads, of course, we haven’t found the answers that we want. One thing, though, that we do know is that there are key elements to our lifestyle that have been shown to have protective effects related to brain health. So that includes things like, obviously, I think most people know diet exercise, right? But in addition, how we use our brain throughout our lifespan makes a difference into what our brain is able to do as we age.
Krys Boyd [00:05:14] So does that suggest having a very demanding and stressful job keeps our brains in tip top shape?
Stacy Vernon [00:05:21] It suggests that there’s a right element of challenge, which is key throughout our lifespan. So if you want to think about it in terms of physical activity. All right. Okay. So if you and I go to the gym, it’s important to have the right level of challenge. But I wouldn’t walk into the gym and try to bench press 300 pounds at the same time. If I had been working out for a long period of time and then I stopped, I would experience a decline. So in the same way, we want to find that right element of challenge throughout the lifespan. However, that challenge can change throughout our lifespan. So it’s important to be cognizant of not only the challenge but also those periods of rest and connection.
Krys Boyd [00:06:06] So the standards are also different for physical health depending on how old we are. I mean, I like to exercise every day. So does my 22 year old daughter. I think that the guidelines for what her body is supposed to be able to do, and what mine is supposed to be able to do, are different, even though we’re both healthy. Is that the case for our brains as well?
Stacy Vernon [00:06:25] I think in traditional ways of looking at cognition and at brain health, we had, and I’ll say, had patterns fairly tried and true ways of understanding. So someone in their 20s ought to perform in an average range at X level versus someone in their 40s versus someone in their 60s. One part of our research is now showing that actually, there are many ways in which we can exceed our brain health and performance that don’t fit into those traditional normative criteria. So yes, we can look at general population norms and say, okay, for, let’s say, someone in their midlife versus someone in their early 20s might perform differently in terms of and expectations, in terms of exercise. What we can say is that we hope to extend the life and in the health of someone’s brain, just as we want to extend someone’s physical health and performance.
Krys Boyd [00:07:26] So if I understand correctly, just about everybody starts to lose brain volume after a certain age. By the way, what at what age does that loss of brain volume?
Stacy Vernon [00:07:37] So. So we think that that begins in our late 30s or early 40s. All right.
Krys Boyd [00:07:42] So, that doesn’t necessarily mean we have or will develop any particular brain disease. How might this change, though, to the size and structure of the brain affect what we can do in our daily lives? So we do.
Stacy Vernon [00:07:55] See a correlation between, the changing or that, unfortunately, atrophy of the brain and changes in things like memory and recall and speed of processing. It’s not necessarily a 1 to 1 ratio though. So in other words, you can look at a group of folks who may be experiencing natural aging looking at atrophy. It doesn’t necessarily correlate to the exact same level of changes in how they live, their day to day life, or how they work through problems, solve challenges, etc. and that’s part of the mystery and the complexity of brain health and performance. One thing that we think is happening here that scientists are kind of theorizing is that this. Translation from the way the brain looks to how we perform may also be predicated on what we would call cognitive reserve. So this idea that cognitive reserve are the sum of all the activities that we do that contribute to our brain health and performance and actually can enact that positive neuroplasticity, so that even when folks have evidence of atrophy, decline, even in some cases, the proteins that may signal dementia, they may not have the behavioral or cognitive changes that reflect that in the brain.
Krys Boyd [00:09:20] Our definitions of what counts as old have shifted over time. Health care allows more people to live longer. Some of our thinking about what counts as old may be influenced by the kind of arbitrary Social Security designation of 65 as the age of retirement and Medicare. Is there a generally accepted scientific consensus about what age means? Old age?
Stacy Vernon [00:09:43] There actually are some. And within research we might talk about okay, here’s midlife, here is old age. But just as in society, we are changing those definitions. I think also in the field of cognitive research we’re changing those definitions. So as an example, you know, I work with lots of folks who were in their 80s, in their 90s who are really challenging this notion of what it means to be quote unquote, old, right? So part of what we do at the center is, challenge this notion of correcting by age, cognitive performance. So what if we leveled that playing field of cognitive performance so that there weren’t arbitrary cutoffs of, okay, at this point your memory is going to be X, but when you get older, your your memory is going to be much diminished. If we begin to look at cognition as being more fluid and dependent on lifestyle and experience factors, we see that there’s a lot of variability, right? Even as we get to an older age.
Krys Boyd [00:10:48] Who are these people that are called super agers? Do we do we know them when we see them, or can their super aging really only be verified by some kind of testing?
Stacy Vernon [00:11:00] One interesting aspect of super agers of I’m kind of smiling as I think about it is, typically when we talk about super agers, we’re talking about folks who are 80 years of age or older who, when we do verify through cognitive testing, tend to test as if they are in their 40s, 50 years of age. So you might see it in that way. However, I’m betting that when you interacted with a super major, you would notice how sharp they were in conversation, how engaged they were, how curious they are. Right? Because these are also hallmarks of a healthy brain, but also of these super agers. So one thing that we’re understanding regarding super aging, that we really want to help inform everybody is that there are elements of their lifestyle, right, that show that they contributed consistently to their cognitive reserve throughout their lifetime. And so it tends to create a protective effect in their brain health and performance. But also as we look at their brains, right? So as we look at brain systems, there’s less atrophy there. Right? So what part of the questions is well what does that mean. Which came first. Right. Is it is it that genetically they’re predisposed or is it that they’ve built over time through lifestyle factors, certain things that have kept them protected? It’s probably a combination of both.
Krys Boyd [00:12:29] Yeah. I want to dive more deeply into the causation and correlation phenomenon. I we never had her tested, but I think my grandmother may have been one of those super agers. She lived to be 90 and was active until about three weeks before she died. Very, very social. Moved across the country in her early 80s. Made a whole new crop of friends. Golfed every day, exercised However, her physical health made a lot of that possible. And, although she took care of her health, I wonder if, you know, how much of her ability to be really healthy in her brain had to do with the fact that she hadn’t had extended periods of physical illness?
Stacy Vernon [00:13:09] And we do know that regular physical exercise does tend to have a protective effect and contribute to cognitive reserve. One thing I would wonder, in the example, of your family member, is it also because there she led a fairly healthy life and physically was able to continue to engage? We know that that also contributes to longevity. In other words, if we think of it, unfortunately, in the opposite is this dynamic of social isolation that can come with physical. Issues for older folks, right? Can can diminish that regular contribution to cognitive reserve and really, unfortunately begin to impact negatively someone’s brain health.
Krys Boyd [00:13:56] Stacy, A few years ago, I learned for the first time that something that doesn’t appear to be related to cognitive ability can have a huge effect. And that is, how well we hear as we get older. What is the thinking about why hearing loss or maintaining good hearing, either naturally or with the use of hearing aids or assistive devices might make such a difference.
Stacy Vernon [00:14:18] There’s a lot of discussion, and thankfully so I think there’s a more of an awareness around the connection between hearing loss and, loss of cognitive abilities. And one thing that we know, this gets back to this idea of social isolation. One thing that we know is how important regular, rich, rewarding social interaction is to individuals. And so what can happen with hearing loss is that it limits our our ability to deeply engage. And so there can be a natural I hear this from a lot of folks that I work with, this just this sort of natural, reservation in social settings. Right? They feel less confident, less connected. So it’s quite important to address those hearing loss issues. That’s something that we talk about quite a bit when we work with individuals at the center for Brain Health is to really address that. Now, one thing that we don’t quite yet understand is are there dynamics in the reverse? So in other words, we do know that it can create social isolation that then can diminish cognition over time. But we don’t know if there’s some other connection related to hearing loss and cognition. But I’m imagining that we’ll know more about that.
Krys Boyd [00:15:33] Are there things that the brain does better as we get older? Are there are there brain tasks that, like a 70 year old could, you know, run circles around a 30 year old?
Stacy Vernon [00:15:44] I get the great pleasure to get to work with folks that where I see this in action. So as I mentioned before, you know, I think it most of your listeners would say, and when I’m working with folks, they would say the same thing, that memory for names. My goodness. You know, I it’s harder for me to remember someone’s name or to remember details. But the thing that I find in older adults that is much more well-honed is the sense of wisdom that comes through experience. So this ability to integrate information from a number of different sources and from deep experiences throughout their lifetime and bring to bear on a new situation. So this idea of wisdom through experience makes quite a difference. The other piece that I see is folks are able to problem solve more readily, and that generally is, true because they’ve seen, okay, I’ve experienced this this situation, I’ve experienced this other situation in the same way. Okay, I’m going to quickly solve the problem. So there’s an efficiency in problem solving that tends to be increased over time.
Krys Boyd [00:16:52] Are there any predictable changes in people’s confidence in making, say, rapid, definitive decisions as they get older?
Stacy Vernon [00:17:01] I do see, and this is one of the things that we, ask folks when when they come to the center for Brain Health, let’s say for, for variety of our programs, is do you feel competent, right, related to your decision making? And has that changed over time? There’s not a, one trajectory. I will say the things that I see that impact folks confidence are, for example, hearing. Right. Do they feel like they’re hearing? Well, another is how busy is their life? Is their day versus how rich is their day. So that’s one of the things that we really encourage folks to prioritize is to limit the, for lack of a better word, white noise, limit those distractions from the day to focus on those high priority decisions. And I see then an increase in confidence. I think a lot of times, regardless of age, I work with folks who who really don’t even realize how distracted they are. I don’t realize how often they are distracted by external, stimuli or internal dialog. You know, that that runs in our head. And so helping people be cognizant of that and take an inventory of that and then hopefully limit those external and internal distractions tends to increase confidence.
Krys Boyd [00:18:27] I have a question about self-awareness. So as we get older, we may be well aware and talk about the fact that it’s harder to come up with those names or to remember, you know, certain facts or, you know, there’s the where did I leave my keys question. Sometimes this. Is no big deal. Sometimes it might be a harbinger of something more serious. How often are people, whether they talk about it or not, aware that they have lost significant amounts of cognitive function?
Stacy Vernon [00:18:55] So that varies considerably. I’ll say that I work with some folks who are what we would call worried. Well, in other words, the level of their worry about losing their keys or, forgetting, you know, the fifth item on their grocery list, causes so much stress that they end up, impacting how well they’re able to think and reason, you know, so some of this is education and helping them appreciate this is normal, right? When we, when we lower level of stress will be generally able to access information. Well. However, there is another group of folks and sometimes unfortunately, this is the dynamic of the the issue of of the problem going on where they have a very, limited or complete lack of understanding of the changes that are going on. So when we work with folks like that, it’s really important to engage with family and friends, right? And to find inroads that makes sense in a respectful way to that individual has experiencing issues. Sometimes it is helpful to do some cognitive assessments and, and sort of demonstrate data. Other times it’s more important to be practical and say, hey, let’s look at, you know, this very practical thing. For example, oftentimes we talk about driving. Oftentimes we talk about, activities of daily living like cooking, cleaning, etc., and show some very specific and limited evidence that helps people begin to adjust to the changes. But unfortunately, that is part of the dynamic of some of these degenerative issues.
Krys Boyd [00:20:33] I want to talk about the different levels of testing, because, many people may be aware there’s a pretty brief assessment that is commonly offered to people beyond. Is that is there an age at which the Moca test is often administered to people in a physical exam?
Stacy Vernon [00:20:51] It’s it’s most often, to folks beyond, say, 55 or so, but it can be administered to any adult.
Krys Boyd [00:20:57] So this is a this is a pretty quick screening test, as I understand it, that doing well or poorly just suggests the next course of action.
Stacy Vernon [00:21:07] Correct. So there are some very brief and understandably so. It’s needed because it’s primarily administered by a primary care physician or someone who has a limited amount of time. And in some cases, that’s not their focus, right, for treating the patient. With that, there are very rough boundaries for, what would be passing versus what would be quote unquote failing on the, on the Moca. What they were designed to do is to screen for, deficiency for further assessment, further intervention, and the piece that these screening tools and it’s no fault of their own, is just because it’s a screening tool. The piece that these screening tools do not include is understanding more subtle changes in memory and thinking, particularly for folks who have, let’s say, a higher level of education or have, a higher level of experience and challenge. One thing at the center for Brain Health that we work, carefully to do is to listen to someone’s subjective experience, perhaps their family and friends, and then take that into account as we provide assessment. So assessment can look like a half a day or a whole day of some pretty comprehensive cognitive tasks, very different than, you know, five, ten minutes of a Moca. What we’re looking at are based on what we understand someone’s previous functioning might be. How are they now? Because there are oftentimes changes for someone who may be a high performer, that brings them into more of a quote unquote, average range. Right. But we want to intervene at that time because that is a change for them, right? That’s something that that screening tools like like the Moca or that there’s many mental status exam there. Other other assessments like that just aren’t able to capture. Right. So I think it’s important to take a comprehensive and holistic approach, to look at both, you know, family members, observations, the individual’s observations, their ability to process complex information. And frankly, what are they doing in their daily life? What does their life look like? You know, are they are they able to do what they want to do? You know, if we talk about brain health definition as your ability to thrive in your life context, does that individual feel like they’re thriving in their life context? If not, how can we help support them?
Krys Boyd [00:23:31] Is it possible, broadly speaking, for the same individual to do pretty well on one of these more comprehensive screenings? If that test starts at 8:00 in the morning and do pretty poorly if that test starts. Like, well, after dinner.
Stacy Vernon [00:23:44] Absolutely. We talk about doing kind of capturing someone at their prime time. So as we look at performance, one thing that we want to help people appreciate is we want to get your optimal performance. When are you feeling your best? Let’s look at it. You then. We do know that unfortunately, just like, with, physical activity, that as we age, we may have a limit, a more limited window of energy and stamina. And so we want to work within that, right? We tend to work with folks either mid-morning or right during kind of a little lunch hour. So, I used to joke that I would have folks come in for assessments on Friday afternoon at the end of their work shift. And I used to always think, oh, guys, let’s let’s find another time, because you and I both are going to be not at our best at that time.
Krys Boyd [00:24:39] Stacey, I’ll remind folks, you are not, a physician. However, I know you’re aware of certain medical conditions that can have a temporary but very significant effect on cognition. You know, sometimes people are suffering from a UTI, and they may have symptoms that look very much like dementia. Once they’re better, those symptoms may improve. People may have trouble bouncing back from physical illnesses or from anesthesia for surgery. What’s going on there? Why are our brains more likely to really crater, even if they have the ability to come back when we’re past a certain age? So our brains.
Stacy Vernon [00:25:14] Are very sensitive to things like, our brain, blood flow and also our ability to metabolize. And so when those things are impacted, right. So as you pointed out, it might even be in a temporary way because as we typically age, our brain is less efficient and, has less brain blood flow, then it takes longer for us to recover. What? That, to me underscores the importance of continuing to add to cognitive reserve, because we do know that we tend to bounce back more readily. Folks who have higher cognitive reserve tend to bounce back more readily. But it is a dynamic that we that we pay attention quite a bit in the positive as well. So we do know that, for example, if I’m talking about, cerebral blood flow, that those things actually can be supported and improved with focused effort on certain lifestyle factors and how we use our brain. So that’s one of the really key components to helping support brain health and performances to help people appreciate, gosh, this helps protect you from hopefully this doesn’t happen, but when you need to make a withdrawal from your cognitive reserve, like going under anesthesia or having an infection.
Krys Boyd [00:26:30] Aside from something as significant as a dementia diagnosis before that, there is something for some people which is called mild cognitive decline.
Stacy Vernon [00:26:41] Mild cognitive impairment.
Krys Boyd [00:26:42] Mild cognitive impairment. Thank you. That sounds like no big deal, but it can be kind of a big deal.
Stacy Vernon [00:26:48] It can definitely be a big deal. It is not a, it there’s not a it’s not a foregone conclusion that one might, begin to experience Alzheimer’s or another dementia, but it can happen that folks who have been given the diagnosis of mild cognitive impairment can then progress to something that, is more progressive, like a dementia. So they’re the optimistic part of that is that we can continue to positively impact our, our cognition, and our brain health in mild cognitive impairment. It’s important to continue to address any lifestyle issues that might be impacting mild cognitive impairment. In other words, like for example, you mentioned sleep, right? So there are certain things related to sleep, related to diet, related to engagement that we can modify or address that can help support folks who are experiencing mild cognitive impairment. And that is just simply a diminishment of cognition within a certain band. Right of of assessment for folks. And one thing that we help people appreciate too, is that loved ones and family members can be a part of this support, right? That we can we can include a team in looking at how we can help support brain health, even if someone’s been given that diagnosis.
Krys Boyd [00:28:15] To somebody with the diagnosis of mild cognitive impairment. If they are going to progress to something more serious, how, consistent is that decline? Like, are there days when that person might seem absolutely fine and other days where they really seem to have a problem, and then they go back to a day where things work pretty well.
Stacy Vernon [00:28:36] There is some inconsistency, right, in cognition, but you can think of it similarly to how you and I may have an. Inconsistent times of cognition. Maybe not to the same degree. Hopefully not. But throughout our day or from day to day.
Krys Boyd [00:28:49] CC what about consistent daily stress? How does that affect the rate at which our brains age?
Stacy Vernon [00:28:58] So stress is an interesting topic because there are times in which we can utilize stress to our benefit. Right. I think we’ve all probably had that experience of maybe we’re getting ready for, you know, a peak experience. And that stress helps hone our focus, right. Helps get us ready for that, that, that activity. However, chronic stress we do know can negatively impact cognition over time. And one thing to think about is kind of. So I was circling back to the the observation that I made earlier about this idea of white noise or extra experiences, distractions in our life. If stress creates those extra distractions experiences in our everyday life, then we don’t have the opportunity for deep thinking, right? For moments of reflection that create more consistent, connections in the brain. Right. So what we’ve done is we’ve limited our ability to think deeply through stress, right. So over time, because we’re not using our brains consistently to think deeply, to think creatively, we’re maybe putting out fires all the time, right? We’re not harnessing the power of neuroplasticity in the same way. Right. Not to mention the negative impacts of chronic stress on the body. But in terms of the way the brain works, if you think about, okay, every day, I want to take some time to really harness this power of neuroplasticity by thinking deeply, by thinking innovatively, but really focusing, stress oftentimes really keeps us at a shallow level of thinking, right? So that over time has has a lot of effects on the way that we’re able to use our brain. Right? We often then just become reactionary as opposed to deep thinkers.
Krys Boyd [00:30:49] Anybody who has ever thought about investing money has probably come upon this phrase that, you know, mutual fund companies will say, which is, past performance is no guarantee of future returns. And we’re supposed to remember this, that even if something was just amazing and performed really well in the stock market, we don’t know what the future looks like. Is that true for our brains as well? Can someone who has functioned brilliantly for the better part of 70 or 80 years? Can we guarantee that they will be functioning as brilliantly for years from today?
Stacy Vernon [00:31:23] Well, there are no guarantees. Fortunately, yes, in a similar way, there are no guarantees, but it is helpful to track brain health and performance over time. Right. So to be our own best, investigator or scientist about our brain health, because we, we talk about quite a bit the brains that we have right now, our cognitive abilities are the brains that we’ve built by the things that we’ve done right. That is cognitive reserve in a nutshell. And so if you’re dealing with someone who’s performed brilliantly, who’s done really well in life, who seems to be, you know, thinking deeply, thinking at in an agile way, thinking creatively, we can anticipate that that will continue. It’s also important to know if it’s not continuing to ask the question, what, what are the key elements that may be impacting that? And then are there ways in which we can, intervene? Right. So the answer is yes and no.
Krys Boyd [00:32:23] I’m curious about your perspective on this question of ageism as someone who, on the one hand, is very excited about the things all of us can do to be healthy in body and brain as we get older. And on the other hand, deals with folks who occasionally really struggle with some problems that are more associated with older age than younger age. You know, I’ve been hesitant about people declaring that someone is simply too old for a particular job. At the same time, people retire for a reason. Lots of people look around at their careers that they’ve been very successful in and think, I’ve lost a step. I’m not moving as quickly as I used to. It’s time for me to step back. What do you think about, you know, how should we make decisions? About how old is too old to do anything?
Stacy Vernon [00:33:13] So I’m in. I have the pleasure of getting to interact with many people who are either at the cusp or have just begun to consider or begin retirement. And while I am not of retirement age yet, I have really appreciated the conundrum that it can create for folks. And both a conundrum, but also, I think, an opportunity. So my perspective is that if we take go back to the. Physical exercise analogy. We wouldn’t tell someone at a certain age to stop exercising unless of course, it’s medically recommended. In the same way, I wouldn’t tell someone to stop. Adding challenge, interest curiosity to their lives based on a certain age. However, there are realities of physical stamina, I think, and mental stamina that are important to assess. So sometimes I’ll tell people, okay, it’s important to have a brain health plan for your retirement. But please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not telling you that you need to work at the same pace in the same amount as you did. You don’t have.
Krys Boyd [00:34:23] To go get a PhD.
Stacy Vernon [00:34:24] Right? Exactly right. But it is important to add, considering brain health to your plan. Now, that may mean it’s two hours of engagement as opposed to eight hours a day of engagement, right? It’s still important. Now, the piece about, you know, should there be sort of age limits in certain areas or age considerations, I think is a really complex one because there is so much heterogeneity in health. There’s so much different. And as we age and we probably of all experiences we see, you know, not everyone who is 60 or 70 or 80 is performing in the same way. So I’d be really hesitant to give, you know, age cutoffs. I think it is more important to consider that optimal level of challenge and that optimal level of stamina. One thing that we really want to help people do, regardless of, you know, the presence or absence of, of an issue or disease or disorder, is to say what we want to do is keep you engaged at a level that continues to feel satisfying for you and and limits frustration.
Krys Boyd [00:35:36] I think you and I share this that we both love our work very much. I’ve tried to fast forward into the future, say 20, 25 years and imagine, you know, making a decision at that point when for a very long time, my identity has been wrapped up in this thing that I do in the world. Like whether or not at that point I still need the money might be a big deal or it might be immaterial. What have you learned about talking to people who you think maybe could benefit from challenging their brains in different ways, from the form their career has taken for decades? Who can’t see themselves doing anything other than their career?
Stacy Vernon [00:36:18] One thing that I think has been really transformative in that conversation, which can be very difficult for folks, right? Understandably so, is considering things like mentorship. So considering, you know, circling back to our conversation around, you know, what are the things that an older brain might do better if we’re talking about it in terms of wisdom, right. Efficiency in problem solving? What if we like we put that to work in thinking about kind of adding to we’re supporting the next generation. So that’s one consideration, right? The other thing is empowering folks to appreciate. Let’s look at the power of innovation. And let’s think about what possibilities your core skill set could be used towards in a way that now more fits your lifestyle, right? So it can be an ongoing conversation, but it’s also an opportunity to help people appreciate, okay, there’s a next chapter, right? And to get excited for that.
Krys Boyd [00:37:16] Yeah, I think sometimes about, in my mind for no particular reason, I think about the challenges of like looking after a pair of three year olds. Like, this is something that we don’t necessarily have to be experts to do decently well, but it’s not a challenge that we would probably put in front of an 86 year old and expect them to have a good day doing their their maybe, you know, things that there are seasons for doing certain things.
Stacy Vernon [00:37:41] Absolutely, absolutely. And I think appreciating that and knowing that it is a season though. Right? I, I really want to challenge when I’m working with folks, this notion that I, I do think that there’s more of a conversation around with this notion that then retirement means we’re sitting on our front porch in a rocking chair with a glass of iced tea or whatever it may be. Right. But to understand that there’s a lot of opportunity for deeper connection, for deeper meaning, for, learning new things, maybe not getting a Ph.D., to your point, but but learning new things. But it does need to be reflective of one’s own kind of pace and expectations for life at that time.
Krys Boyd [00:38:22] So there are some jobs, Stacey, where by law in this country, we say beyond a certain age, they are no longer open to you. Airline pilots, air traffic controllers, most members of the military are just some examples there. This may be unfair to some people. Who would be. Perfectly competent to continue doing those jobs. I know sometimes it’s a source of frustration. But broadly speaking, we have agreed that there is, there’s a compelling reason to say we’ll just cut it off for everybody. Some people are talking now about putting age restrictions on jobs for federal offices. Just based on your insights, working with folks, do you think this is something that at least is worthy of consideration?
Stacy Vernon [00:39:10] I can understand in terms of thinking about, activities that require quite a bit of quick, thinking, for example, speed of processing, and perhaps some physicality, for example, to your reference of talking about, airline pilots or folks in the military, I would be less confident in saying that we need to talk about cutoffs for folks for whom there’s not the physical demands, let’s say, in a federal level. Because as I mentioned before, there’s so much heterogeneity when we talk about, what someone’s performance and their brain health might be as they age. And I certainly wouldn’t want to limit the ability to understand and benefit from someone’s experience and wisdom as they age. So I think it’s a conversation that’s important to have, but it’s so much more nuanced than when we’re talking about physical abilities. Can you literally lift this much? Right? Or can you, you know, respond this quickly? It’s it’s the brain is so complex that it is quite difficult to ascertain, you know, exactly where someone how someone might perform at something that’s highly cognitively demanding, like a federal position.
Krys Boyd [00:40:27] If we don’t have a diagnosis like dementia. But we’ve started to notice ourselves slowing down cognitively, in the same way that like we lose muscle over time, but we can work out and build some of that muscle back up. Can we do the same thing? Can we can we reverse cognitive decline if it’s relatively mild?
Stacy Vernon [00:40:50] There has been a lot of research to show that we can positively impact brain health and performance, even when we begin to see some decline. So a way to think about that is in in our research, we’ve learned these three key areas that one might be able to address. Right. So one is emotional balance. That’s the ability to remain emotionally composed and resilient in the face of stress. So one might be able to kind of address areas of that factor, as we call it, right, to support brain health. Another area is connectedness. And this gets back to what we’ve been talking about, about social connectedness, but it’s also connectedness to a sense of purpose. So one might consider how might I forge more rich social connections or engage in an activity that’s very meaningful for me, volunteering, for example. The other is clarity. So this sense of clarity of thinking, right. That includes also things like sleep. So maybe let’s say I’m going to get better sleep, right? Or I’m going to engage in activities with a single focus for 30 minutes a day and really do something that that I value in that time. So we’ve found that in those ways, when one begins to address their brain health and those three factors that we have seen, improvements in brain health and performance, I would also add, of course, lifestyle factors. Right? So if we look at things like diet, there’s been some good research to show that if we adopt a more Mediterranean style diet that’s low in sodium, that even folks who are experiencing declines or some diminishment in cognition, they may see some support in that area. As I mentioned before, about again with with your doctor’s approval, getting exercise. Right. So about 150 minutes of moderate intensity exercise, right, has been shown to support especially things like memory, and certainly sleep. Right. So I just I encourage everyone, please pay attention to sleep. It makes such an impact. But also how we use our brain every day makes a difference. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to. Oh gosh. Well, so-and-so told me I need to learn a foreign language, or so-and-so told me I need to pick up, you know, musical instrument. It can be something that means brings meaning and value to you.
Krys Boyd [00:43:14] So it can’t be something you hate. In other words, you want to do something that you’ll you’ll.
Stacy Vernon [00:43:18] Stick with because you’re not going to stick. Exactly. You’re not going to stick with it. Yeah.
Krys Boyd [00:43:21] Stacy Vernon is program manager and head of adult assessment at the center for Brain Health at the University of Texas, Dallas. Stacy, thank you so much for sharing your insights.
Stacy Vernon [00:43:31] Thank you for having me.
Krys Boyd [00:43:32] You can find us on Facebook and Instagram and subscribe to our podcast. Wherever you like to get podcasts by searching for KERA, think. Or you can listen to the. Podcast at our web site any time that is at thinker a dawg. Again, I’m Chris Boyd. Thanks for listening. Have a great day.
