Pope Francis has been recently hospitalized with respiratory problems, and now Catholics worldwide watch for news from the Vatican. Christopher White is the Vatican correspondent for National Catholic Register, and he joins host Krys Boyd to discuss the current pontiff’s health and history – and what being the first pope from Latin America means for his legacy and the church going forward.
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Transcript
Krys Boyd [00:00:00] At the age of 88, with a serious recent infection on top of chronic lung and kidney problems, Pope Francis has struggled physically of late, although by all accounts his spirit has remained strong. Catholics around the world continue to pray for his recovery, but this most recent health crisis is a reminder that he can’t lead the church forever. From KERA in Dallas. This is Think. I’m Krys Boyd. As a native of Argentina, Francis is the first pope ever from the Americas and even from the Southern hemisphere. And his ideas about the role for Christians within a rapidly changing world have surely been shaped by the places and the times in which he has lived. The statements he’s made on issues as contentious as homosexuality, abortion, divorce and capitalism have struck some Catholics as not progressive enough, while others have found them a bridge too far. Christopher White is here to talk about Pope Francis and the legacy he will someday leave. He is Vatican correspondent for NCR, the National Catholic Register. Christopher, welcome to Think.
Christopher White [00:01:02] Thank you. Good to be with you.
Krys Boyd [00:01:04] It feels as if the Vatican has shared more details about the Pope’s diagnoses in his day to day condition than when past popes were ill. Is that just about how organizations are expected to communicate in the age of digital media, or has Pope Francis encouraged more transparency somehow?
Christopher White [00:01:22] I think it’s a bit of both. Pope Francis knows the world of modern communications very well. He’s been shrewd over these last 12 years. Is Pope and how he himself is chosen to communicate. And I think primarily being in hospital for a month, he’s been keen to combat fake news. And I think he’s recognized that the best strategy to do that is to have a pretty transparent process about what he’s going through. So the Vatican has been giving daily bulletins, and we’ve been getting briefings about three times a day from the Vatican spokesperson. And that in itself is a novelty in the Catholic Church because there’s, you know, there’s a long time saying here around the Vatican that a pope is never sick until he’s dead, which is generally meant to convey that it’s taboo to talk about the health of the Pope. But we’ve seen a very different approach. This is the gravest health crisis of Francis’s papacy. And yet we’ve had pretty clear communications day by day about the highs and the lows.
Krys Boyd [00:02:23] The Pope does seem to be recovering from this latest crisis, although it remains to be seen how complete that recovery will be. What kinds of health challenges has he dealt with in recent years?
Christopher White [00:02:34] Well, about three years ago, the Pope became dependent on really using a wheelchair most of the time, or at least a cane to get around. I mean, this is a man who has is used to jet setting around the globe, and he hasn’t let that stop him. But what we have seen is that he has become a little less autonomous. He’s continued to keep a brisk pace of travel and a full slate of meetings, but he often has to have someone push him around in a wheelchair. He has like to quip that it doesn’t take a knee to run to church. It just takes a brain. And I think, you know, many of us thought that the papacy would look very different once he started using a wheelchair. But to be honest, it really hasn’t looked very different than, than before. This is a man who is very content to be out of the Vatican and with the people. And so he’s done everything he can to not let that serve as a barrier. Yet consequently, I would say, you know, because he’s been confined to a wheelchair for for more time than he would like to be, he’s gained quite a bit of weight, which has added to his underlying respiratory issues. And even with this double pneumonia that he’s been battling that is on top of chronic bronchitis. So this is not a great health profile for someone his age at 88. He’s one of the world’s oldest popes ever. And that’s saying something in an institution that’s been around for 2000 years.
Krys Boyd [00:04:02] How comparable are a pope’s official duties to that of, say, a president or a monarch? Like how much of the role is spiritual or ceremonial in nature, and how much involves meetings and decision making and day to day grind?
Christopher White [00:04:15] Well, he is head of state and head of church. So there is the spiritual dimension that, that you hinted at, which of course is primarily and involves prayer, leading masses, being concerned for, you know, the state of the world at a spiritual level. But, you know, Rome is really a crossroads of the world because of the Vatican. It’s you know, the Catholic Church has 1.3, 1.4 billion members. And that means that it’s almost sort of a listening post. So in addition to countries from around the world having ambassadors to Italy, they also have countries to the Vatican separate ambassadors. And that’s because of the amount that happens at the Vatican on the international level. You have so many heads of state that come through Rome wanting to meet with the Pope, because of the fact that he is considered a moral leader. He doesn’t have a military power. There’s no economic prowess behind the Vatican, but it is just his moral authority that also attracts the likes of the heads of Google and Apple, and even folks like Elon Musk, who in recent years have all wanted to to meet with the Pope. And so it’s a pretty full schedule, especially for an 88 year old.
Krys Boyd [00:05:38] One example of the kind of diplomacy happening. What role did Pope Francis play in reestablishing relations between the United States and Cuba a few years ago?
Christopher White [00:05:48] Yes. This was something that, as it was happening in real time, sort of went under the radar, but it was through the Vatican and particularly the Vatican ambassador in Cuba, really working back channeling with the Obama administration to to opening up the US to to better relations with Cuba. And we didn’t learn about this until after the fact, but it was really because of that back channel that we saw a greater degree of openness.
Krys Boyd [00:06:17] Outside of acute periods of illness. Christopher, has Pope Francis made a lot of adjustments to his day to day schedule as he’s gotten older and sicker?
Christopher White [00:06:27] No. And in fact, those around him would would really like to see him do that. I think that’s one of the frustrations that many people had leading up to his hospitalization. You know, for weeks the pope had been struggling with breathing. He had relied on some of his aides to to read some of his longer addresses. But even on the morning that he went to the hospital, he had five official meetings, including with the Prime Minister of Slovakia. He was, you know, the week before he went into hospital, he presided over a mass in Saint Peter’s Square that thousands attended in the middle of February, which I think many people would see as a very foolish thing to do for any 88 year old, but particularly one with a history of respiratory illnesses. And he was already struggling at that time. But this is a man who is stubborn, and he wanted to press on. And eventually, of course, it caught up with him and it’s landed him in hospital for almost four weeks now, but he hasn’t altered his schedule. Another example I would point to is just this. Last September, he took the most ambitious trip of his papacy. It was a two week trip through Asia and Oceania to four different countries. I was with him. He flew over 44 hours over the course of those two weeks And many of his aides did not want the trip to happen. Those of us who were traveling with him thought at some point he was just going to collapse because, you know, it was going to just be too much, that it was going to be too hot in these locations. But I can tell you, he was rejuvenated by being on the road for two weeks and was faring quite well at the end of it. And I think the cause of that, he is reluctant to slow down because he knows what energy does give him.
Krys Boyd [00:08:19] So he’s an extrovert?
Christopher White [00:08:21] Absolutely, yes. I mean, he often jokes that being inside the Vatican is like being in a prison. He wants to be out with the people. You know, before he became pope, when he would come to Rome. You know, he was constantly walking the streets when he lived in Buenos Aires. The archbishop there. He took the metro. When he became pope, he chose to live at the Vatican guesthouse that he resided at during the conclave that elected him, and many people interpreted that, said, he wanted to reject the trappings of power and forgo living in the Vatican’s apostolic palace because that, you know, connoted wealth and opulence. And there is some truth to that. But the reality is the Pope, one, delivered a guesthouse at the Vatican because, you know, 100 or so other people live there. And he wanted to be around people.
Krys Boyd [00:09:14] Did he want to be pope before he was named pope?
Christopher White [00:09:18] Absolutely not. This is a man who we know was looking forward to his retirement. He came to Rome in in 2013, prepared to go back. He had, you know, was working on his his messages for that Easter. In 2005 and the conclave that elected Pope Benedict the 16th after the long papacy of John Paul to, you know, he was the runner up in that conclave. So it’s not as if he was in complete unknown, but most people had written him off as too old for the job. He was 76 at the time, and most people thought, you know, he might be a kingmaker in this conclave, but he’s not going to emerge as king. And he certainly didn’t see that for himself either. And so I think, you know, having traveled with him and covered him for many years now, you get a sense of a man who rejects the trappings of power. He really is keen to be with the people. In his mind, I think becoming pope would be a real barrier to that.
Krys Boyd [00:10:21] Are there a lot of cardinals like that now in the Vatican?
Christopher White [00:10:27] You know, there there are roughly 137 cardinals who, if the conclave were held today, would would vote, would take part in a conclave to elect the next pope. And Pope Francis has named about 80% of those. So many of these individuals are people that he’s identified in the same style of, of him, that they tend to share some of the same pastoral outlooks on life, the same priorities. He’s really emphasized the need for simplicity and solidarity with the poor. And when he’s named new cardinals, that tends to be the model that he goes for. And I think it’s fair to say that the next conclave is likely to elect someone that probably does, you know, resemble a lot of the qualities that Francis himself possessed. But there’s no one template. And, you know, cardinals are traditionally called princes of the church. They wear very formal gowns, investments. And they look like royalty for just the average person on the street. And there is, you know, there is quite a bit of that sort of clericalism mindset that is still there is as well. So anyone that seen the the Hollywood blockbuster film conclave that just came out in recent months, knows that there is a sort of sense of, you know, this is a palace or a court. And even after 12 years of Francis, that rings true.
Krys Boyd [00:12:02] Many people, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, have wondered whether Pope Francis might follow the example of his predecessor and step down from the position, rather than having his papacy end when he dies. Before we talk about what Francis has said, we should talk about Pope Benedict’s retirement, because that was highly unusual, wasn’t it?
Christopher White [00:12:24] It was when he resigned in February 2013. It was a real shock to the Catholic Church. You know, a pope had not voluntarily resigned in some 600 years before that. It was just not something popes have historically considered or done. And I remember, you know, 12 years ago when this happened, you know, there were people that study church history in church law, checking to make sure this was even allowed a thing that popes could do because it was just something so unheard of. But this was, you know, Pope Benedict decided to step down because he said he the job had physically overwhelmed him. And at the time, it was widely praised as as an act of courage and as an act of humility to have this powerful role in, in the world and to relinquish, to voluntarily relinquish power. And over the years, Pope Francis has praised that example. He has said, you know, it took great courage to do that. And he’s forever grateful for the witness. Benedict set in doing that. But he said, I feel called to the papacy for life. And if I’m incapable of carrying on with the job physically, then of course I will consider resignation. But he said, in general, I feel, you know, this is something that should be for life and as a way of resisting pressure to resign.
Krys Boyd [00:13:53] Christopher, is there any reason to think Pope Benedict was looking to establish any kind of precedent for future popes to follow? Or did he think his own situation was kind of a one off under special circumstances?
Christopher White [00:14:05] I think you have to go back in time to consider what Pope Benedict was probably thinking as he was aging. You know, Pope Benedict had been before he was pope, he you know, his he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, and he had been in Rome for a very long time, you know, since the 80s. He had sort of had an outsized role in the Catholic Church. And he saw in the late years of Pope John Paul II, a man who had battled Parkinson’s disease, who really, in the last roughly five years of his papacy, was very incapacitated. And he saw that there was a power vacuum, and I think he was trying to proactively resist against that. And he did not want the same thing to happen under him. And so he took the dramatic step to resign. And he did so, you know, at a shock to the system, he didn’t want to see 1 or 2 powerful individuals that had not been elected pope. Step in and try to play the part of Pope.
Krys Boyd [00:15:08] It’s worth noting that the job of Pope has been around since the days when it was much more common for people to die young and fairly suddenly, as opposed to being alive but maybe deeply incapacitated for years on end. But what are the other reasons the church has historically expected popes to serve until the end of their lives? Is there sort of official doctrinal justification for this?
Christopher White [00:15:34] For starters, I mean, if you think about it, the papacy is the last standing monarchy in the West, and monarchs typically rule for life, so it tends to follow just that historical custom, more so than any theological justification. That being said, you know, when John Paul two was very, very sick for so many years at the end of his papacy, you know, the common line was that was echoed about in Rome was that, you know, Christ, when he was suffering, did not come down from the cross. And in that same sense, people view the papacy as something not to be, you know, given up just because of physical suffering. But of course, we saw in the final years of John Paul two tremendous scandals when it came to abuse, financial mismanagement. And we saw the real life consequences of having a pope in power in name only. And that has been the corrective mechanism that pope into the 16th. And now Francis is trying to to address.
Krys Boyd [00:16:33] How has the church handled situations in which popes were alive but incapacitated, to the extent that they really could not fulfill most of the duties of office.
Christopher White [00:16:44] Well, I think the real example in the modern era at least, is that of John Paul II. And, you know, he had a very powerful secretary of state, Italian Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who ruled with an iron fist and was quite happy to effectively serve as Pope John Paul was incapacitated. He also had a very loyal personal secretary, Archbishop Jovic, who, you know, could comfortably make decisions and say that he was acting with the mindset of the Pope because he’d been his loyal aide and at his side for, you know, three decades. And and he was trusted, you know, but these men were not elected to the job but were effectively serving the job. So there’s been that sort of challenge of trying to sort of maneuver around these powerful aides that are effectively doing the job. They were not elected to do.
Krys Boyd [00:17:36] There’s all this public speculation about how long Pope Francis might remain as pope. Is this a topic of conversation within the Vatican? Perhaps very discreet conversation or people? For lack of a better phrase, reading the writing on the wall and starting to think about what comes next.
Christopher White [00:17:55] Oh, of course. And these conversations happened long before the most recent hospitalization. In 2021, Pope Francis was hospitalized for 11 days. He had a part of his intestine removed. And even then, when he came out of hospital, one of the first things he joked about was how he knew there were those that were hoping that he wasn’t coming out of hospital and had already been making plans for who comes next. So of course, there have been, you know, not just backroom conversations, but it’s played out in the press. You know, in the early days of this hospitalization, the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, had his his vicar general, the man who runs the church in New York sent out a memo to priests about what to do when the Pope dies, because he said, you know, this pope is at death’s door. So these are things that are being talked about, and sometimes it’s practical. You know how a church or parish should mark the death of the Pope. And other times, it’s much more conniving where people are, you know, preemptively counting votes, saying who might emerge next.
Krys Boyd [00:19:02] Pope Benedict died a little over two years ago. I’m curious, Christopher, as to whether having an emeritus pope around seem to have any effect on the way Pope Francis did things.
Christopher White [00:19:15] I think if you were to have asked this question to Pope Francis, he would say, of course not. I mean, it has the benefit. And he would say it had the benefit of of having a man like Benedict who had been on the job and had that wisdom. He often referred to him as sort of an elderly grandfather inside the Vatican, that he would consult on serious issues, but I think the reality is it was a strange circumstance at least. Unprecedented in the modern era where you had a current serving pope and a retired pope. Living very close together inside the walls of the Vatican. And these are two very different men. They share a lot in common in terms of the fundamentals of the Catholic faith. But it’s it’s no secret that they had real areas of departure in different areas of emphasis. And because of that, I would say rival courts effectively emerged. And those that were unhappy with the direction Francis is taking the church certainly sort of sought out refuge in Benedict the 16th circle. And I think that created an underlying tension that was felt around Rome for really ten years.
Krys Boyd [00:20:29] Do you have any knowledge as to whether Pope Francis ever watched the narrative movie about that era, The Two Popes.
Christopher White [00:20:39] You know, Pope Francis has said repeatedly that he does not watch television, period. We know that he’s attended a handful of film events around the Vatican over the past 12 years, since he’s been pope. But I do not have any knowledge. They saw that. I would highly doubt it. That being said, you know, there were many, many Vatican officials that were very involved behind the scenes in the creation of that film. And they’ll be the first to say it’s fiction, but they thought it was a fair portrayal of the Catholic Church. And in fact, you know, there was a screening here in Rome when the film came out in which cardinals were in attendance. So it’s a film that, again, it’s not a real life portrayal of these two men, Benedict the 16th and Pope Francis, but it does capture, you know, I think, the strange dynamics of the papacy.
Krys Boyd [00:21:33] Pope Francis is a warm and very charming figure in public. He has certainly been quite popular in the media. Sometimes those popular portrayals of a public figure can be oversimplified. I wonder if you can speak to that.
Christopher White [00:21:50] Well, I think many people, when he was elected in 2013, saw him as history’s first pope from the global South, and they saw a man who immediately changed the public perception of the church. He was someone who, you know, his very first trip outside of Rome was to the Italian island of Lampedusa, where he put a spotlight on the global migration crisis. Then a month after that, he gave a very famous press conference when he was asked about gay priests and he said, who am I to judge? And that line ricocheted around the world. I think that immediately for many people, Sort of cast an image of this pope as a progressive or a liberal pope. And he’s certainly far more progressive than his two most recent predecessors, who focused primarily on issues of gender, family, sexuality. But Francis is no liberal in any modern American political sense. This is a man who is strongly opposed to abortion. He’s in fact referred to abortion. He’s equated it to hiring a hitman. So this is someone who uses very strong languages to talk about that. He also hasn’t changed the church’s fundamental opposition to gay marriage. He’s been more hospitable and open to LGBTQ people in the church. And he says repeatedly, the Catholic Church is open to all, but he does not and has not changed church teaching. So I think it requires a much more nuanced understanding than simply trying to say this is a progressive pope. In the past, two popes were conservative. You know, Catholic social teaching is far more complicated than that.
Krys Boyd [00:23:38] When we talk about conservative and more progressive factions within the Catholic Church, did those divide along perhaps different lines than conservative and progressive politics that we’re familiar with in the United States?
Christopher White [00:23:51] I think absolutely. I mean, take, for example, the the church in in Africa where Catholicism is growing most rapidly. The bishops and leaders in the Catholic Church, there tend to be overwhelmingly focused on issues of of, you know, sexual morality. And they tend to be quite traditional on their in their stance on these issues. At the same time, they are deeply concerned and committed to combating climate change because it’s affecting the lives of their people. And they will come to Vatican events and really scoff at climate change deniers. So on one hand you might say, yes, they’re very conservative because their stance on sexuality or gender, but they’re quite progressive when it comes to climate change or criticisms of the market economy, because they know first hand the realities, the fact that their people are suffering because of climate change. And so I think the whole picture is much more complicated then, and can’t be easily mapped on the American political landscape.
Krys Boyd [00:24:58] As Catholics know, you can attend a mass pretty much anywhere in the world in any language, and and the essential components will be pretty identical from, you know, one service to the next. But I wonder, Christopher, if you think the experience of being a Catholic is very different, say, in Africa from Latin America, from North America to Europe, that sort of thing.
Christopher White [00:25:23] Well, I think back on my travels with Pope Francis to all these, you know, different pockets around the globe and I, you know, cover covered a mass in Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where basically it felt almost more like a festive party than a mass. There was dancing, there was a really festive atmosphere. And then, of course, I’ve attended far more solemn masses in Europe, where the church tends to be much, much more of a high church experience. And I think for Francis, one of the things that he’s been quick to emphasize repeatedly throughout his papacy is the need for, you know, to use a very Catholic term, inculturation, sort of taking the elements of the local culture and incorporating it in a way that helps spread the faith.
Krys Boyd [00:26:14] You mentioned that the church in Africa is growing rapidly. How might the selection of a pope from Argentina have reflected concerns within the church of the declining influence of Catholicism in Latin America, where evangelical Christianity is gaining a greater stronghold.
Christopher White [00:26:33] I do think location is something that folks on the outside are far more interested in than those on the inside when it comes to electing a new pope. When when a pope dies or resigns, cardinals meet behind closed doors for about ten days discussing the needs of the Catholic Church. And I think it’s fair to say that they effectively, through that conversation, draw up a job description, and then they look for who best fits that role, rather than the reverse of saying what might be interesting. A pope from the global South. I think we we saw the election of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who became Pope Francis in 2013 because the Catholic Church was reckoning with all sorts of crises, abuse, you know, financial mismanagement, and really not knowing how to navigate its way in the modern world. And they look to Cardinal Bergoglio, who again was elected Pope Francis, because in those meetings he emerged as a candidate who understood the modern world and was was comfortable dialoging with it. And he really called for the church to have a role in sort of stepping out from behind Vatican walls and living life with and among its people. And of course, he was shaped by his experience of, you know, growing up in Latin America. But it wasn’t that wasn’t why they selected him, that he was born in Buenos Aires. But certainly that life experience was a part of creating the profile that made him an attractive candidate.
Krys Boyd [00:28:11] Has Pope Francis made documentable strides toward cleaning up the church’s problems with sexual assault committed by priests?
Christopher White [00:28:20] I think it’s fair to say this is unfinished business. Pope Francis has gone further than any pope in history has in changing church law and sort of outlining the necessary steps to hold priests and bishops accountable for both abuse and its cover up. But despite the fact the letter of the law has been changed, the culture has a long, long way to go in catching up with the letter of the law. And we see these in this church law being applied very differently from location to location. I think he’s made great strides in meeting with abuse victims, trying to let them know that their voices have been heard. At the same time, I’ve interviewed countless victims of clerical abuse who are trying to navigate a very complicated and murky, opaque legal system here who want to know what’s happening with the investigations into their cases. And it’s very difficult for them to get answers. And until that changes, I don’t think you can say mission accomplished by any means.
Krys Boyd [00:29:27] In those cases where the letter of the law is not followed, is the reason for that. About relationships. Like a bishop is friends with a priest who’s been accused of something abhorrent.
Christopher White [00:29:38] I mean, I think that’s one of many reasons. I mean, it is very, very difficult to change the culture. You know, the Catholic Church is a deeply hierarchical, deeply clerical institution. And frankly, you know, and historically an old boys network that has tended to protect itself because those that come from the same system tend to protect others within that system. And that’s the very difficult thing about having a system where those inside the system are also tasked with judging those in the system. So even today, if a bishop or a priest is accused of abuse, they are going to be held accountable by other priests or bishops, not some sort of outside body that makes it very, very difficult to change a culture.
Krys Boyd [00:30:29] Christopher, have you had the opportunity to sit down one on one and interview Pope Francis?
Christopher White [00:30:36] I have not had a formal one on one interview with Pope Francis. I’ve discussed many things with him, but he’s been very reluctant to give sit downs to U.S. news outlets. So if he’s listening, I would say the request is still on your desk, Pope Francis.
Krys Boyd [00:30:51] Well, I guess what I’m curious about is what is on your list of things to talk to him about. Say you got half an hour and you can only cover a handful of things. What would you want to know from him?
Christopher White [00:31:02] Well, I think, you know, on many questions, particularly on issues of women, LGBTQ issues. I’d like to know what his grand strategy is. I mean, he he is trying to to walk a tightrope, I think, of making the church more open and inclusive while also Being mindful. The fact that this is an institution of 1.3 1.4 billion people and he’s trying to preserve unity. And so I’d want to press him about, you know, what the grand vision is in doing just that. You know, I have I have many things I want to talk to him about. He’s someone who’s deeply committed to climate change, but he also is an Argentine carnivore. And I want to know if he should be eating less steak to help out the environment. So many things. And the other thing, he’s just a man who’s deeply immersed in literature and music that I would love to pick his brain about that. So a 30 minute conversation would really feel powerful to try to try to limit it to that.
Krys Boyd [00:32:03] I did find it interesting that a while back he had a meeting with comedians from around the world, and he talked about the importance of humor in a in a spiritual life. I wonder, on the one hand, maybe you were charmed by that, and on the other hand, you thought, that’s a slot I could have had.
Christopher White [00:32:23] Well, I mean, I think for those of us who cover the day in and day out happening to the Vatican’s, that was a great morning at the Vatican to to see folks from, you know, our favorite films and televisions, late night shows and podcasts here and, and, and frankly, their interactions with each other were far more interesting than the pope’s interactions with them. Look, this is a man who, in 2013, knew he was elected on a reform mandate. And part of that reform mandate is changing the perception of the church, the world around it. And I think he sees the church as needing to be in dialog, particularly with culture makers. And so, you know, that’s why I thought he did the event with the comedians. He had, you know, poets and literary authors here at the Vatican for another such encounter. It’s why he meets with sports teams and that sort of thing. And I think, you know, that meeting was another example of someone saying, you know, we have something to say to one another and we should be doing this in conversation, even if we have wildly different views. Let’s see where we can find common ground. So I think it was more than just for a few laughs, even though we certainly had many laughs that day.
Krys Boyd [00:33:37] The Pope has talked about granting a greater role to women within the church, but has closed the door on the ordination of women priests as long as he is pope. So what new or expanded roles or even available for women?
Christopher White [00:33:51] Well, inside the Vatican, the Pope has overhaul of the Vatican Constitution, which governs how things operate inside the place to allow for basically any, any baptized Catholic to hold positions of of leadership in the Catholic Church. And that is a novelty. That was the result of a reform process that took nine years. But in 2023, he made that change when he rewrote the Constitution of the Catholic Church. So just as recently as earlier this this month, at the beginning of March, we saw the head of the Vatican City State, effectively the governor of the Vatican for the first time ever was a woman. And we see, for the first time ever this year, a woman heading a Vatican department. So these are positions of management, not of ministry. On on the ministry side, the pope has been pretty, as you mentioned, pretty clear that he does not see a role for women in the Catholic priesthood when it comes to the questions of women in the diaconate. We know historically in the early church, there were women that were ordained as deacons. There’s been a push for Francis to reconsider that and ordain women as deacons. And that is something that he has said. The time is not right. It’s not mature, but he’s not closed the door on that either. So that would be one area in which if he chose to open that door. He could.
Krys Boyd [00:35:18] As you mentioned, Christopher, the Pope has never strayed from the church’s long opposition to abortion. But he’s also indicated this should not, perhaps be the number one issue for Catholics to concern themselves with. What does he wish Catholics would work for and against around the world?
Christopher White [00:35:35] I think for Pope Francis, the guiding principle principles is human dignity. He’s written and spoken about this on numerous occasions, and I think he’s been very concerned that the issue of abortion has been singled out, even in the United States, where the US bishops have said it’s their preeminent priority. And Pope Francis has said, no, you can’t just single out one particular issue. You have to see all of these issues, whether it’s abortion, the death penalty, the plight of migrants and refugees, climate change, you have to see them to use his language is all interconnected, and he wants them to be sort of viewed collectively as part of one consistent ethic of life that is concerned about the human dignity for all, rather than singling out one particular issue, particularly if it’s over politicized.
Krys Boyd [00:36:22] Pope Francis has famously chosen to lead a materially humble life, and you explain some of the reasons for that. But he doesn’t wear the fancy shoes. He lives in this small apartment rather than the palace he could have. Has he taken any steps to divest the church of some of its wealth, to support the well-being of people living in poverty around the world?
Christopher White [00:36:43] Well, just just this month, we saw that the Pope effectively gave a very nice Vatican palazzo to the homeless to be used. So what we’ve seen over the last 12 years is him taking very, you know, practical measures, providing, you know, Vatican facilities to be used as showers and, and places for sleeping for, for those that are on the street here in Rome. We’ve seen him redirect his personal funds, gifts, you know, financial gifts he receives to be used toward, you know, the plight of migrants in particular. But in turn, in terms of the church’s art holdings, which is tends to be its greatest sort of source of wealth, at least in terms of quantifiable wealth. The pope has been very clear he’s not going to start selling off, you know, parts of the Vatican Museums and, you know, the Sistine Chapel, you know, master masterpieces. Because to use his language, they’re not his or the church is to sell because they belong to all of humanity.
Krys Boyd [00:37:46] The job of the pope is a political job in the world. You mentioned that Pope Francis says he doesn’t watch TV. I’m curious what you know about how he is briefed on global issues. Does he received something like the President’s Daily Brief?
Christopher White [00:38:00] Well, the Vatican has representatives. They’re called anuncios in every single country around the world, almost with the exception of just a handful. The Vatican Diplomatic Services is the oldest diplomatic service in the world. And these are trained diplomats that work for the Holy See, for the Vatican. And they they produce very thorough, detailed reports about the situation on the ground, and not just when it comes to the local church. These are political briefs about what’s happening in every country in which the church has a representative. And of course, these get back to the Pope, and they are presented to him through his secretary of state. And so that’s one of the main ways the Pope knows what’s happening in the world. Another way, I’d say, is that, you know, he he may not be watching television, but he is an avid reader. And we know even in hospital that he’s been consuming a number of newspapers. So he makes sure that he’s aware of what’s happening in the world. And I can also say that, you know, he speaks to those most affected every night, even in hospital at 7 p.m., he is calling the Catholic Church in Gaza to find out about the situation on the ground that people are experiencing. After all this time since October 7th and the war in Gaza. He’s also called colleagues of mine who have been on the ground reporting in Ukraine to get their perspective on the the actual, you know, the front lines. So this is a man who is 88 years old. He’s sworn off television. But he has a way of trying to sort of keep a pulse of the situation.
Krys Boyd [00:39:40] Does he take sides in hot button conflicts like the ones you’ve mentioned, or does he simply say his wish is for the fighting to stop?
Christopher White [00:39:52] Well, the Vatican has a long history of trying to maintain its neutrality in times of conflict, to sort of see see themselves as almost a global listening post for people to meet, where they see the major goal being that of peace. And we’ve certainly seen that in recent years, in the wars in Ukraine and the situation in in Israel and Gaza. But even though there’s neutrality, Vatican diplomats, you say they’re not indifferent to the situation. So when it comes to Ukraine, they will say that Russia is the aggressor, but they will still see their role as primarily calling for peace rather than pointing the finger. And that, of course, has opened him up to many criticisms that he has been cowardly and too soft in naming the real underlying issues in these conflicts.
Krys Boyd [00:40:47] Do global leaders pay much attention to how Pope Francis, or any other pope, assesses the morality of their actions, like how influential is a pope in real terms?
Christopher White [00:41:00] I think if you look at the funeral of Pope John Paul II in 2005, it had more world leaders and dignitaries than almost any other funeral of a head of state in history before that. We saw the relationship between President Joe Biden, the nation’s second Catholic president, and and Pope Francis is one that was very warm. That doesn’t mean they see eye to eye on every issue. I mean, Pope Francis was quite critical of the US’s stance on Ukraine. And and when it came to Israel and Gaza. But he still had open dialog. And we don’t know what he discussed with folks like Joe Biden behind closed doors. But you can imagine that there were some tense conversations. But at the end of the day, the Pope’s position, whether it’s with Trump, Biden or any other political situation, is to sort of see where they can find common ground.
Krys Boyd [00:41:56] You are in Rome and traveling around the world with the Pope to cover him in an objective way. You’ve obviously, if you haven’t sat down with him one on one, you’ve seen him in person multiple times. I wonder if, having seen him many times, if he strikes you as a just as a human being with a very important and noteworthy job, or if there is a quality about him that is striking.
Christopher White [00:42:25] Yeah, I mean, I have had numerous conversations with him, particularly in the course of traveling the world with him. And he’s a man that I think is feels very sort of called to the job that he is doing. But he’s not overly pious. I mean, I will often say things to try to make him laugh, because he’s often talked about how he appreciates humor as the best medicine that he can have. And I find that to be a natural point of connection. I think this is a man from his earliest days as a Jesuit in Argentina. He understands the dynamics of power and authority, and he is quite interested in the politics of it all. And I think he is engaged quite shrewdly in trying to to figure out how to lead. And I think he does that motivated by this, you know, real spiritual conviction that he was elected for this job for a reason. And I think that’s why, even though he never desired to have this job, you see him lead with a sense of peace and confidence. And quite frankly, having watched him for many, many years up close. He really likes this job.
Krys Boyd [00:43:38] Has Pope Francis done or said anything to suggest a specific preferred successor?
Christopher White [00:43:45] No. The most he has done is put his thumb on the scale is basically stacking the College of Cardinals, which is what every pope does. You know, it is their job to win. Cardinals retire out to replace them with new Cardinals. And he’s done that by naming, you know, two thirds, roughly 80% of the men who will elect successor. And he’s put men in place from places like Papua New Guinea and Brunei and South Sudan, countries that have never had a cardinal before. And he skipped over places like Los Angeles and Paris and Milan that have always had cardinals and now no longer have cardinals. And he’s done that because he’s wanted to sort of shift the power balance, to change the dynamics of the men who vote on his successor. And in that way, he’s influenced the process, but he’s never elevated one particular person as his own favorite.
Krys Boyd [00:44:41] Christopher White is Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Register. Christopher, thanks so much for making time to talk.
Christopher White [00:44:48] A pleasure to be with you.
Krys Boyd [00:44:49] Think is distributed by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram and anywhere you get podcasts or go to our website to listen. It’s think.kera.org. Again, I’m Krys Boyd. Thanks for listening. Have a great day.
