President-Elect Trump has tapped Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Health and Human Services department with promises that dismay many public health officials. Yasmin Tayag, staff writer at The Atlantic, joins host Krys Boyd to discuss RFK Jr’s strategy to “Make America Healthy Again,” his distain for everything from vaccines to fluoride to processed foods – and his approach to managing a $1.7-trillion agency. Her article is “‘Make America Healthy Again’ Sounds Good Until You Start Asking Questions.”
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Transcript
Krys Boyd [00:00:00] Whatever your politics, we can probably agree that make America healthy again is an appealing catchphrase, but it comes with a lot of big questions. Most notably, whose idea of healthy are we talking about and what kinds of government policies and investments might get us there? From Kera in Dallas, this is Think. I’m Kyrs Boyd. President elect Trump seems happy to leave those questions up to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Scion of the Kennedy political dynasty. Former democrat turned independent presidential candidate, late breaking endorser and embracer of Donald Trump for president. Kennedy is not a physician or a scientist. He’s an environmental lawyer. But he has very strong feelings about what is necessary to improve this country’s health profile, some of which are in line with mainstream science, others of which many experts say could be downright dangerous. And if confirmed as Health and Human Services Secretary, Kennedy will be at the top of a huge list of federal agencies with a combined $1.7 trillion annual budget. Yasmin Tayag has been looking into Kennedy’s proposals. She’s a staff writer at The Atlantic, where you can read her article “‘Make America Healthy Again’ Sounds Good Until You Start Asking Questions.’” Yasmin, welcome to Think.
Yasmin Tayag [00:01:18] Thank you so much for having me.
Krys Boyd [00:01:20] It’s not so unusual for presidential nominees to be somewhat controversial, but is it strange for somebody to create both excitement and deep concerns among people all across the political spectrum?
Yasmin Tayag [00:01:33] Yes, I think we’re we’re used to presidential appointees having very clear political allegiances. And that generally results and either Republicans or Democrats criticizing them. But in RFK case, he has both support and has elicited criticism from people of both parties, which is definitely strange. His views reflect both concerns of the left and the right.
Krys Boyd [00:02:07] And the Department of Health and Human Services is an extraordinarily large one. It encompasses 13 divisions, a combined 80,000 employees. What are some of the agencies that fall under that HHS umbrella?
Yasmin Tayag [00:02:22] The really big ones are the FDA. The Food and Drug Administration, which is in charge of regulating the safety of our foods and drugs, and the CDC, which is in charge of public health. And the NIH is there, as well as control of Medicaid and Medicare. He’s going to have a huge influence on the well-being of Americans and a lot of different ways.
Krys Boyd [00:02:51] If he’s confirmed. Right. And we’ll talk about the possibilities of that later. But, you know, based on that, Yasmin, there is essentially no American whose life won’t be potentially affected by this appointment if it happens.
Yasmin Tayag [00:03:04] Absolutely.
Krys Boyd [00:03:06] Has Kennedy talked about wanting to reduce the size of the HHS workforce in any significant way or any of the agencies that he would oversee?
Yasmin Tayag [00:03:16] What Kennedy is aiming to do is, in his words, clean up the agencies and remove any corporate influence. That’s sort of been his rallying cry to remove the influence of industry on our health agencies. And certainly, depending on how he interprets that, could result in whittling down the size of these agencies and perhaps replacing the people he gets rid of with people who he deems more neutral.
Krys Boyd [00:03:48] Broadly speaking. Past HHS secretary is appointed by presidents of both parties could be described as deferring to mainstream scientific expertise, particularly within the agencies they happen to oversee. Kennedy is a notable, notable deviation from that precedent. Right. He. He doesn’t really trust science all that much.
Yasmin Tayag [00:4:10] No. He has a long track record of espousing views that are not based in science at all, and that, understandably, has made a lot of public health experts nervous. Perhaps the most prominent view that he has espoused is his stance on vaccines. He has resisted the label anti-vaccine, but I think mainstream public health experts would agree he is anti-vaccine, and the way he has gone about supporting this view is by both cherry picking studies, studies that have been discounted, as well as panning the value of science papers in general. He deeply mistrust the institution of science itself. And so he can point to journal articles that mainstream scientists reference and say that’s just bad science.
RFK Clip [00:05:13] There are experts, authorities on one side and experts and authorities on the other that are saying the exact opposite thing. No, I don’t trust authority. I need to see the details.
Yasmin Tayag [00:05:26] And so it’s not really clear what he is using to make his decisions. And that’s what’s really scary part.
Krys Boyd [00:05:33] That was going to be my next question. Like, where is he getting the information that he believes is valid and accurate?
Yasmin Tayag [00:05:41] You know, that’s a great question.
Krys Boyd [00:05:44] Like is he on Quora or Reddit or something.
Yasmin Tayag [00:05:48] You know, he exists in the same space as a lot of people with alternative views on health and and honestly, a lot of conspiracy theorists, they share snippets of small studies that they don’t necessarily interpret correctly. They look at studies that have been, you know. Completely discounted by mainstream scientists and argue that. That doing so was unjustifiable. And I think the the broad way to look at the way people like RFK look for evidence is that they look for bits and pieces of data wherever they can find it to support what they want to believe. And that isn’t necessarily. Good data, at least in the eyes of mainstream scientists.
Krys Boyd [00:06:44] Right. I was going to say, everybody has a right to sort of decide where to get their information. But that is very much in conflict with the way scientists do their work.
Yasmin Tayag [00:06:55] Yes. You know, it’s great to ask questions and be critical of papers. But, you know, we have long relied on scientific research and publications to get at truth. And if you just mistrust that entire machine, then I don’t really know where we’re supposed to get our information.
Krys Boyd [00:07:20] Along these lines of Kennedy distrusting vaccine science, he still believes that widely disproven study from the 1990s. Right. That claimed a link between childhood vaccines and autism.
Yasmin Tayag [00:07:34] One of the most debunked claims in public health, and yet he’s still harping on it.
Krys Boyd [00:07:42] What kind of additional research does he say he wants to require for vaccines that have already been demonstrated safe for use? Like I know that he’s said over and over that he just doesn’t think there’s enough research to prove these things are safe.
Yasmin Tayag [00:07:56] You know, that’s the thing. He hasn’t really specified. He. Constantly paints science as either good science or bad science. And in his view, the loads of vaccine research that exists is bad science. And he keeps talking about wanting to have more, having a better science. But I don’t really know what that means. It hasn’t been defined. And again, I think what it will be is science that he can point to, to support his view that we should be skeptical of vaccines.
Krys Boyd [00:08:37] Do we know how and why he came to distrust a lot of establishment medical science? Like, was there a point at which he sort of was willing to trust most doctors? And then that changed.
Yasmin Tayag [00:08:51] He had a long history of espousing conspiracy theories. I don’t know if I could point to an exact moment in which his views switched. We do know that he was an environmental lawyer for a long time and, you know, did some great work in cleaning up natural habitats. But I think it was around the time that he he began to question vaccine safety, that things really start to take a turn. And he became very well known and vocal for those views and the way I see it. The other conspiracies just sort of naturally followed from there.
Krys Boyd [00:09:37] I want to ask this carefully, because I don’t want to be perceived as somehow making fun of someone’s serious health crisis. It has been widely reported and spoken about by Kennedy himself that he suffered a parasitic worm in his brain at some point. He also suffered the effects of mercury poisoning. Is there any reason to believe there was permanent damage done by these illnesses?
Yasmin Tayag [00:10:05] You know, I don’t think I would be qualified to say. But certainly that news and the fact that he spoke about it so publicly, I think it would make sense. That would give anybody pause. Just the fact that he’s had these. Real neurological issues. I couldn’t comment on what actual impact they’re having on his thinking and behavior now. But certainly it would it raises questions.
Krys Boyd [00:10:38] So let’s sort through some of Kennedy’s ideas for ‘Making America Healthy Again’ when he talks about addressing the root causes of chronic disease, which I’ll note a lot of doctors think is a great idea. What does Kennedy mean by chronic disease? Is he talking about illnesses linked to lifestyle and environmental factors in particular?
Yasmin Tayag [00:11:00] Yeah. You know, he points to diseases such as diabetes and obesity and cardiovascular disease, diseases that have long been linked to the unhealthy way in which Americans live and eat. And so, you know, on the surface, that seems like a pretty good claim. He’s going to stamp out these chronic diseases by, you know, cleaning up our food supply and our lifestyles.
RFK Clip [00:11:27] And we have a generation of kids that are swimming around in a toxic soup right now. And we need to you know, we’re betraying them. We’re supposed to be taking care of our kids and we’re letting these industries corrupt our agencies and mass poison them. And, you know, nobody in the world has a chronic disease epidemic of the kind that we have in this country.
Krys Boyd [00:11:51] And presumably, this appeals to President elect Trump because healthier Americans, their care would cost us collectively less.
Yasmin Tayag [00:12:02] Sure. I’ll be honest. In my view, I don’t. I think I’m a bit of a cynic in this regard. I don’t think Trump really cares all that much about what direction the nation’s health takes. But I do think that his selecting RFK gathered a lot of extra support for Trump because he he sort of embraced all of our case followers. But sure, certainly if Americans can stamp out chronic disease, it would weigh a lot less on our national budget.
Krys Boyd [00:12:39] But from the perspective of the president elect, it appears to be that Kennedy is his choice to run this giant federal department as a prize for having endorsed him. It’s not necessarily that he was thinking about Kennedy all along as he was running for president.
Yasmin Tayag [00:12:58] Yeah, that does look like it does seem like that is the case, which is why, again, I am skeptical of whether Trump really supports Kennedy’s views on health or whether it’s just sort of convenient for him to do so.
Krys Boyd [00:13:14] All right. We saw them eating McDonald’s together on a plane recently, which is something.
Yasmin Tayag [00:13:20] Yeah, that was something. Do we know if he actually ate it, though?
Krys Boyd [00:13:24] We saw him photographed with it. I don’t know that we saw him take a bite.
Yasmin Tayag [00:13:28] He’s definitely called out the food available on Trump’s plane before as deeply unhealthy. So I would be I would be very surprised if he actually took a bite.
Krys Boyd [00:13:40] So, Yasmin, as you mentioned, RFK Jr has some big ideas about improving the food supply. Do we know how Robert F. Kennedy Jr. defines a healthy diet in broad terms?
Yasmin Tayag [00:13:53] We have a sense of some of his nutritional views. He argues that seed oils are bad for you, that there is too much sugar and processed food in the American diet. He is an advocate for drinking raw milk. And we know that he as an individual eats most things except for processed food. So, you know, that kind of gives us a rough sense of what he thinks is a healthy diet, But we don’t know the specifics.
Krys Boyd [00:14:30] Okay. The raw milk thing, this essentially means unpasteurized milk. We’ll note that many public health experts have been alarmed at that enthusiasm. But what does Kennedy think is better about raw milk? Milk that has not been pasteurized?
Yasmin Tayag [00:14:46] He thinks that it’s healthier and it contains more nutrients, which I should point out is not true. And he thinks it’s tastier, generally better for you and it’s not supported by the science and in fact, is considered very risky to drink because of the potential to cause disease.
Krys Boyd [00:15:07] Right. So it may not contain more nutrients, but it almost by definition contains more pathogens.
Yasmin Tayag [00:15:13] Absolutely.
Krys Boyd [00:15:15] I was really interested. I’ve been reading up a lot about this. And, you know, every publication has been reporting on this raw milk thing. And, you know, I go through the comments and it’s surprising how often older people write in about not being able to access pasteurized milk when they were kids, depending on where they lived. And people remember much older people remember a time when people got sick from milk.
Yasmin Tayag [00:15:42] Yeah. Milk used to be before pasteurization. Milk was a pretty common cause of illness and even death in young children. And so pasteurization of milk, especially in previous decades when it was really, really widely consumed, was a sort of public health game changer.
Krys Boyd [00:16:04] It seems unlikely that Kennedy would eliminate access to pasteurized milk. But could he perhaps broaden access to unpasteurized dairy products? I mean, you can’t buy them everywhere in the country. Some places outlaw them.
Yasmin Tayag [00:16:18] Definitely. He wouldn’t have the ability to make them available outright, but he could certainly make a recommendation from a very significant position of power that public health experts in certain states and states could then take into account in making their own recommendations for the state. This is the case for a lot of Kennedy’s influence. You know, he’s a lot of public health and food safety is the domain of state governments, but he could certainly influence them.
Krys Boyd [00:16:55] As you’ve mentioned, Kennedy is no fan of big business, of of many kinds. It does seem, though, as if the dairy industry itself would push back on this idea that unpasteurized milk is better. Like they don’t want to be sued all the time by people who get very sick from drinking tainted milk.
Yasmin Tayag [00:17:12] Yeah, I think there are a lot of food industries that are going to be pushing back on RFK, including milk, because they’re definitely going to make a lot of people sick if their people are drinking unpasteurized milk. And, you know, that points to a bigger question about RFK, his position in Trump’s administration. He’s so anti-corporate. Yet Trump has traditionally embraced corporations. And it’s unclear how how that’s going to pan out.
Krys Boyd [00:17:47] Given Kennedy’s background in environmental law. It might have seemed a logical choice for the president elect to put him at the helm of the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency. Perhaps it’s notable that it didn’t happen that way.
Yasmin Tayag [00:18:00] Yeah. In Trump’s victory speech on election night, he famously said.
Trump clip [00:18:07] I’m going to let him go wild on health. I’m going to let him go wild on the food. I’m going to let him go wild on medicines.
Yasmin Tayag [00:18:14] But he said, stay away from the liquid gold Bobby.
Trump clip [00:18:18] Baby. Leave the oil to me. We have more liquid gold, oil and gas. We have more liquid gold than any country in the world, More than Saudi Arabia. We have more than Russia. Bobby, stay away from the liquid gold. Other than that. Go have a good time Bobby.
Yasmin Tayag [00:18:40] Trump is very aware and wary of RFK Jr’s stance on oil, which is that, you know, it is terrible, not great for the environment. And Trump has made very clear that he doesn’t want RFK in that domain.
Krys Boyd [00:18:49] When RFK Jr talks about supporting regenerative agriculture, what does that mean?
Yasmin Tayag [00:19:06] Regenerative agriculture refers to a form of farming where a goal isn’t just to coax as much of a crop out of the soil in the shortest period of time. Instead, it focuses on maintaining the health of the soil so that crops can be grown in the long term without depleting depleting the earth in which it’s grown. So it’s more of a sustainable and long ranging view of what farming is, as opposed to the industrial farming which we do now, which is very extractive and often leaves the soil very unhealthy and unable to grow things.
Krys Boyd [00:19:49] So is Kennedy a big proponent of organic foods?
Yasmin Tayag [00:19:53] You know, I’m not actually sure, but I would wonder if he is if he’s skeptical of the label organic because it, too has been corporatized. But he definitely pushes is pushing for more regenerative agriculture.
Krys Boyd [00:20:11] What concerns does Kennedy have about food additives like dyes?
Yasmin Tayag [00:20:16] He is very concerned about food dyes in and processed foods such as cereals. The most recent example he’s pointed to is Fruit Loops and the dyes that make them so colorful. And he’s concerned that they are unnecessary and may cause health impacts on children. You know, a common one that’s often discussed is its potential to cause ADHD in kids.
RFK Clip [00:20:44] We have a thousand ingredients that are illegal in Europe. For example, a box of Fruit Loops from Canada or from Europe. And it has a completely different group of ingredients, actually colored with vegetable oils which are safe. Ours are colored with chemical oils, which are very, very dangerous. They’re growing tumors. They’re causing cancer. They’re directly linked to ADHD in kids. And the food companies know this, but it’s cheaper for them and they get brighter colors and Fruit Loops. But it’s literally poisoning our kids.
Yasmin Tayag [00:21:15] There’s not a ton of evidence about this. But he certainly expressed his concerns. And, you know, he’s not the only person who’s done that. You know, in California right now, there is a big push to ban certain food dyes. And in other countries, there is similar skepticism. So this is one of RFK Jr’s stances that, you know, warrant more research and evidence but isn’t completely off base.
Krys Boyd [00:21:45] Yeah, I think most people would agree that nobody needs to be consuming food that is artificially colored, let alone fruit loops, which are also full of sugar. But I mean, is there is there significant evidence that the food dyes that are currently allowed for use in the U.S. food supply are negatively affecting our health? Like, is this a big concern for a lot of nutrition scientists?
Yasmin Tayag [00:22:12] It is not a big concern. It’s certainly getting a lot of airtime these days, but it’s not considered a very pressing public health issue.
Krys Boyd [00:22:23] Yasmin, has Kennedy offered any specifics about how he might increase access to food that he considers nutritious? Like what sort of a role would he have? It’s one thing to take away things that he thinks are not healthful. It’s another thing to get Americans to eat them. What are his ideas about this? Has he articulated any of them?
Yasmin Tayag [00:22:43] He has not articulated them. Again, one of the big question marks about the MAHA movement is how are you going to execute on any of these goals? One of the big questions about RFK Jr’s health goals is to what degree he would need to pass regulation in order to execute on them. And, you know, can would he be able to pass laws only allowing certain types of foods in school lunches, for example, or banning certain types of foods from our grocery stores? You know, maybe he if somehow he could find a way to minimize the amount of processed food sold in supermarkets. The big question I have is how the rest of the Trump administration and the Republican Party more generally is going to accept this. You know, they’re traditionally a party of deregulation, and Trump has a long track record of that. And so if RFK Jr comes in wanting to set more rules, I’m not really sure how successful that would be.
Krys Boyd [00:23:48] I think it’s fair to characterize Kennedy as deeply worried about the addition of fluoride to drinking water supplies in this country, which has been happening for many decades in some parts of the U.S.. Why do water districts do this in the first place? Why add fluoride?
Yasmin Tayag [00:24:03] The science shows that fluoride added in small amounts prevents tooth decay and cavities. And there’s plenty of research showing that when you remove fluoride from the water, supply, rates of dental disease go up, especially in kids. So it’s a pretty widely accepted safe interval, like dental intervention. Our teeth are healthier because of it.
Krys Boyd [00:24:31] And some people might think of this as kind of a minor thing, but in fact, I mean, dental health matters a lot, right? If you lose teeth early, you can’t necessarily eat and chew those healthy foods. There are a lot of knock on effects from having bad teeth.
Yasmin Tayag [00:24:47] Absolutely. It causes all sorts of health issues, you know, bad breath for one, or just not having a complete smile. Potentially there is an impact on gum disease. You know, it’s it’s uncomfortable. I think people should maybe prioritize dental health a little more.
Krys Boyd [00:25:11] So what are Kennedy’s worries about it? Why does he think the practice of fluoride public drinking water needs to stop in the places where it’s already happening?
Yasmin Tayag [00:25:21] His concern is that it lowers the IQ of children. And this isn’t a completely outlandish claim. There have been a few studies suggesting that ingesting fluoride in very high amounts far higher than what’s currently in water in America, is associated with a small drop in IQ. And what I think Kennedy has done is take this data point completely out of context and to. Essentially correlate fluoride with lowering IQ when the reality is a lot more nuanced. You know, it’s what level of the fluoride that matters. And I think it’s definitely worth noting that the studies in which fluoride is associated with the drop in IQ, you know, they, they look at a really, really high level of fluoride, which is not what we’re drinking at day to day.
Krys Boyd [00:26:21] So Kennedy wouldn’t singlehandedly be able to order all the municipalities and water districts in the country to stop fluoridated water. Right. How might his influence play out on a question like this?
Yasmin Tayag [00:26:34] Yeah. RFK Jr would not be able to. For states into setting any particular fluoride level. But what he can do is make strong recommendations. And if he if he supports publicly supports the belief that fluoride levels are too high and that fluoride needs to be removed, that could have us that that he has a lot of power to sway the opinions of public health experts in charge of state policies and. You know, especially in Republican led states, they may be more open to his views. And I also think that the average person, you know, parents who are concerned about their children’s health could be swayed by his views as well. The larger concern is that RFK Jr is being elevated to such a position of power that his views carry a lot, might carry a lot more weight and credibility than perhaps they deserve.
Krys Boyd [00:27:48] Yeah, that’s interesting. The idea, you know, we think of of the fact that Americans don’t really listen to government guidelines, but some people do, or they’re just sort of, if you’ll pardon the pun here, they’re in the water around us and we absorb them because we’ve heard this messaging right, from government officials.
Yasmin Tayag [00:28:05] Yeah, I think the importance of scientific leadership is to interpret the science. For us, it’s, it’s hard to make sense of it. Even myself as a science journalist. It’s hard to read papers and draw real conclusions from them. And whether or not you agree with the government, I think the public health guidelines on on anything really on on vaccines, on, you know, what a healthy plate looks like, on how much exercise you should be getting or how much water to drink. These are. All just sort of in the background of our of our lives. I just think most people don’t actually think about it.
Krys Boyd [00:28:48] Yasmin, I do want to note that Kennedy has publicly stated he doesn’t plan to prevent people from obtaining vaccines if they want them. How, though, could he use his influence to reduce the use of vaccines by the general public?
Yasmin Tayag [00:29:06] The main way in which RFK Jr could reduce the use of vaccines is by deciding which ones are covered by Medicare and Medicaid. So which ones the government is going to pay for. Because he has control over that. And you know, more broadly, again, if he being in this position can convince other public health experts of the of his views, they they may change their recommendations. I certainly hope not. And I don’t actually think that is likely. But it. Could happen.
Krys Boyd [00:29:47] Covid vaccine formulations are not perfect, but many, many scientists believe they have saved countless lives. What could the implications of Kennedy’s vaccine skepticism be if we were to find ourselves once again in a situation like a pandemic where there was a race to find some kind of even partially effective formulation to protect people?
Yasmin Tayag [00:30:13] Oh my goodness. This is the future I keep trying not to think about, but I think, you know, he’s in charge of the budget. So if there was a situation in which we needed a vaccine really quickly, he may or may not put all of our resources toward that. I think more broadly, I mean, if you look if you think back to the pandemic and when we were looking to the CDC for public health guidance, he would be in charge of the CDC. He would have the final say on the sort of guidance on vaccines that was being promoted. And I think there’s certainly a possibility in which he says the vaccine is completely optional, even though it is necessary for the country to reach a certain level of immunity. He’s he’s very big on, you know, letting people have their own be able to make their own choices about their health, which, you know, is great. But in a in an emergency situation such as a pandemic, I think a firmer stance is needed. And I don’t think we would get that from Kennedy on vaccines.
Krys Boyd [00:31:25] Well, he’s talked about severing the relationship between government agencies and big pharma, which again, would seem to be in conflict with a largely pro-corporate president like President elect Trump. But talk a little bit about how government scientists do collaborate with the private sector on research that could affect all of our health.
Yasmin Tayag [00:31:46] Yeah. You know, there’s been accusations of the CDC, the FDA having a revolving door with private enterprise where its experts, you know, are in a government position one day and then working for private companies the next. And, you know, there are concerns that that is influencing the policies we have for our nation’s health. You know, one example that I’ve been thinking about a lot is that RFK Jr’s criticism of big Pharma is not that different from what Bernie Sanders has been saying about the makers of Ozempic. Sanders, prominently left wing politician, has been railing against the manufacturers of Ozempic for raising the price is so high and making them completely unaffordable for Americans when they don’t have to. And yeah, there’s a there’s definitely an alignment there between RFK Jr and and parts of the left that is unusual, I think.
Krys Boyd [00:32:57] Kennedy has also expressed concerns about drug approvals being sped along by these fears that drug companies can pay to the FDA for like a timely approval process. I think this has to be approved by Congress for such change to happen. But if that were to happen, would the effect be to slow down a lot of drug approvals? I mean, there are people out there waiting for new medications that might improve their health.
Yasmin Tayag [00:33:22] It’s hard to say, but I would think that it would depend. I think it would depend on the drug. Certainly some would slow down, but others that he deems worthy of his support might continue to be prioritized somehow. It’s really hard to say.
Krys Boyd [00:33:40] I read that drug approval decisions are typically handled by the career scientists at the FDA, and they have a process for this. It may be flawed, but it exists. I was surprised to read that Kennedy, as HHS secretary, if confirmed, would have the ability to override these decisions by the FDA.
Yasmin Tayag [00:33:59] Yeah. He is in charge. And yes, RFK Jr. would be the head of all of these these departments, including the FDA. And I don’t really know what else there is to say other than that. That’s what has a lot of scientific experts nervous. Again, it’s going to come down to what evidence he’s pointing to to make those decisions. Or if he even has to point to evidence to make those decisions.
Krys Boyd [00:34:28] Okay. So Kennedy’s positions have earned him fans and also opponents on both the right and the left. What does this tell us about the sort of confirmation fight that might lie ahead for him?
Yasmin Tayag [00:34:43] Well, he needs to be approved by the Senate. I think he could perhaps have a lot more support from Democrats than you might expect. But at the same time, I think he might have a hard time convincing Republican senators to get on board with his anti-corporate stance, especially given the amount that the amount of support that comes from industry, whether food or pharma. The sense I get is that he has a pretty good chance of being approved. To back up a lot of Kennedy’s concerns about public health and the environment are aligned with concerns typically associated with the left. And, you know, we should point out that he used to be a Democrat until 2023 when he ran as an independent for president. And as such, you know, his his views on on vaccines, on the healthfulness of our food, they they all came out of a sort of crunchy liberal mindset as well as his his stance that government agencies need to be rid of corporate influence is also an argument often used by the left. And so, again, I think he could potentially gather quite a bit of support among the left because at least on the surface, his his views are kind of palatable.
Krys Boyd [00:36:14] Palatable. We should note, you know, crunchy liberals don’t necessarily have claim to to always being in line with established mainstream science.
Yasmin Tayag [00:36:25] Yes, definitely worth pointing out. But again, I think the concern with Kennedy is that he could sort of destabilize what we count as good science versus bad science. And so the views that were once considered fringe may no longer be fringe.
Krys Boyd [00:36:43] Aside from, you know, maybe decent chances of being confirmed by the Senate, could this job, in fact, be filled without Senate confirmation if the president elect convinces the body to take a long enough recess to allow for an appointment during that time?
Yasmin Tayag [00:36:59] That seems to be the case. I can’t say I’m an expert on the processes, but I’ve been reading that that is a possibility. And yes, that could happen.
Krys Boyd [00:37:12] The president elect has historically, as we’ve mentioned, opposed the kinds of environmental policy changes that Kennedy has called for. Is there reason to think that Trump would just let Kennedy do his thing when it comes to wanting to protect air and water and soil quality as Kennedy sees fit?
Yasmin Tayag [00:37:30] I really don’t think so. For Trump. Oil has been such a big part of his his entire concept of what makes America great. And, you know, further extraction and use of oil just runs completely counter to what RFK Jr stands for. So I think that’s really unlikely. And I also think that Trump’s support of American business and the corporations that that produce our food would make it difficult for RFK Jr to push forward with his vision of America as a place of regenerative farms and, you know, dismantling industrial agriculture. It just doesn’t square with what Trump’s priorities are.
Krys Boyd [00:38:16] All of us have argued a few times with our bosses. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. I’m curious about the kind of pushback he might face from the career scientists at the agencies that RFK would oversee.
Yasmin Tayag [00:38:33] You know, there have been a lot of public health officials expressing their fear, their sadness and their frustration with this with his appointment. And so I think that could very likely continue within within these agencies. And I honestly think a lot of people might leave a lot of scientists who just, you know, refuse to answer to somebody. So. Strongly anti-science. I can see a future in which they just don’t want to work for him and they find work elsewhere.
Krys Boyd [00:39:14] I know some public health professionals working outside of the agencies that Kennedy would oversee have mounted a campaign against Kennedy’s nomination because they have concerns about his rejection of mainstream science. Are those campaigns gaining much traction?
Yasmin Tayag [00:39:32] I would like to think so. Certainly. I’ve been seeing it all over every major news outlet, you know, just lists of all of the things Kennedy has gotten wrong from, you know, his lists of his incorrect beliefs on nutrition to his conspiracy theories. And I think there’s there’s quite a prominent group of public health experts. Communicating how wrong RFK Jr. has been about health in the past. But I will say one thing that has, you know, made me a little nervous is support for him also coming from public facing experts. He seems to be gathering a, I think, relatively small group of in a physician, researcher, supporters, but they all support Kennedy’s critique of the medical industrial complex and they think that he would be a good change in our public health.
Krys Boyd [00:40:53] So, Yasmin, I suppose the final question is this. Certainly the Health and Human Services Department and its policies have the potential to affect Americans health. Whether Americans are paying any attention at all based on different policies that will affect them. How much do you think average Americans listen to what the government has to say about what’s good for their health, given the fact that so many of us struggle to eat right, to get enough exercise, that sort of thing.
Yasmin Tayag [00:41:22] You know, I think. Like we discussed earlier, there are certain precepts of American public health that we just sort of have internalized without thinking about them much, such as, you know, like the food pyramid or the need to cut down on sugar and what heart healthy foods look like. Actually, that one is not a great example because there’s a lot of debate about not to, but. I will say after Covid, I think. A lot of Americans are thinking about government public health policies more. Not necessarily in a positive light. As we know, a lot of people became very skeptical of government mandates for vaccines and and lockdowns. My concern is that people are thinking more about public health because they’re starting to see it as another factor in the us versus them framework that Trump and RFK Jr have sort of pushed. You know, both of them have argued that there is an elite that is controlling our our public health policies and making people sick. Whether or not people actually care about what the government has to say, I think that fear of of being manipulated by some powerful group resonates with them.
Krys Boyd [00:43:03] Yasmin Tayag is a staff writer at The Atlantic, where you can read her article, “‘Make America Healthy Again’ Sounds Good Until You Start Asking Questions.” Yasmin, thanks for making time to talk.
Yasmin Tayag [00:43:14] Thank you so much for having me.
Krys Boyd [00:43:16] Think is distributed by PRX, the public radio exchange. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram and listen to our podcast for free wherever you get podcasts. By searching for KERA Think. If you’d like to learn about upcoming shows we’re planning, check out bios and show information or sign up for our free weekly newsletter. The website is think.kera.org. Once again, I’m Krys Boyd. Thanks for listening. Have a great day.
